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I was greatly saddened to hear of the

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death of the right honourable Sir Gerald

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Coffman MP Member of Parliament for

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Manchester Ardwick and Manchester Gorton

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for an amazing 47 years building his

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parliamentary majority up to over 25,000

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because of his fidelity his attention to

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detail and his capacity for hard work

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which until the end was as great as any

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political figure with whom I have ever

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been associated John Kauffman was a

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friend of mine for more than 30 years

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and indeed we had mutual friends and

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acquaintances going back in his case to

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the 1960s particularly Harold Wilson the

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former Labour Prime Minister whom

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journal Coffman served in Downing Street

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as a press officer between 1966 and 1970

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I became a friend of Harold Wilson and

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Joe Hoffman was a storehouse of more

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stories about the Bevin Gaitskell

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conflict about Sir Harold Wilson himself

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than anyone alive

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alas until yesterday Joe Coffman and I

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had very many shared interests included

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amongst them was clothes so Gerald was a

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real dandy no-one could dress like him

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no one would actually dress like him but

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Joe Coffman always carried it off with

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real panache he was as Jeremy Corbyn

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said in his fine tribute last evening a

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real dandy he was also a source of jokes

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some of them a little off-color and

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funny stories anecdotes like no other I

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have ever known I traveled very widely

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around the world with Joe Kaufman

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spending long concentrated periods of

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many days just him and me in some cases

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I remember in Geneva three days

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Joel Kaufmann my sides were sore with

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laughter his treasure trove of funny

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stories and gossip but we had many more

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serious common interests too

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we shared an interest in Pakistan and in

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Kashmir that we spent long times

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together on the road particularly when

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he was the shadow foreign secretary and

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I used to introduce him as his warm-up

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act as the greatest foreign secretary

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Britain had not yet had unfortunately he

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never got the chance to be the foreign

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secretary of Britain and if he had

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things would have been very much

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different because Joe wasn't just a

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highly principled highly intelligent man

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he was also an extremely courageous one

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he made no bones about it that the

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people of Kashmir for example had been

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the victim of a vast great historic

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crime caused by British imperialism

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perpetuated by the Indian armies brutal

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occupation of the valley of Kashmir we

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share the love of Pakistan and Pakistani

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food

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we both regarded the Lahore kitchen

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which is the kind of Indian cooking that

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is now famous throughout the land even

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if it's never called Pakistani it's

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called Indian mostly although most of

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the restaurants are owned by Bengalis

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paradox that Gerald used to point out to

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me every single time we sat down for a

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piping hot curry but I suppose the most

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significant of our common interests was

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the issue of Palestine Sir John Kaufmann

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a man of the Jewish faith was a Zionist

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he grew up collecting money for the

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Zionist State but decades ago and decade

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by decade he grew more strongly

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convinced that the State of Israel was

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nothing more than a your

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peon colonial settler state in his words

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worse than the European colonial settler

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state of apartheid South Africa he

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explained when I last interviewed him on

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our RT Sputnik show which I hope that we

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can show you one or two of the excerpts

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from in this broadcast that Israel was

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worse than apartheid South Africa

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because of the proximity of the victims

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and their victimizers in South Africa he

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explained it was just about possible for

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the most part for the oppressor to

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maintain a very significant separation

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between them and their victims no such

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separation being possible in occupied

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Palestine and as the decades grew on and

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as Israel's crimes grew more and more

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grisly grotesque Joe Kaufman's courage

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in confronting them even when earning

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him the intense hatred of the supporters

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of Israel grew more and more bold more

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and more forthright Joe Kaufman

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campaigned not just for a boycott of

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Israel which he did and followed in his

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personal life

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absolutely he called for the strongest

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possible economic sanctions from the

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international community from the

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European Union from Britain America and

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the United Nations itself so as as he

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put it to end the first world economic

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standards of living

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enjoyed by that settler state of Israel

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other people's expense an entirely false

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standard of life based upon the largesse

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of the United States and the open

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trading relations and investment by

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other Western countries and when Israel

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invaded repeatedly Gaza mass

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thousands thousands of Palestinian women

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men and perhaps above all children this

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served to break general Kaufman's heart

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I being younger than him was able to

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take to the roads with repeated convoys

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to break the siege on Gaza Joe Coffman

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with his mighty heart and with his

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piercing invective punctured absolutely

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the big life that Israel was acting in

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some way on behalf of Judaism on behalf

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of the Jewish people

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Joe Kaufman was the greatest of things a

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Jew who could see clearly that the State

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of Israel was an abomination was a

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blasphemy against Judaism and against

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the historic role of progressive Jewish

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people in the development of

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civilization and of progressive thought

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and action across the world I don't want

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to give the impression that life with

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Gerald Kaufman was always intense and

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always deeply serious as I've been

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thinking about him all of this day our

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first day without Joe Kaufman in the

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world I've been laughing I've been

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laughing at his amazing treasure trove

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his fund of stories and of labor history

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my last observation is this Kaufman was

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the smartest of things a real political

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operator I was sitting next to him in

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the House of Commons as I frequently did

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when the house was convened on the sad

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melancholy day which still makes me feel

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sad even now after all these years the

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day that the late and great John Smith

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the Labour leader passed away we were

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both sitting with tears in our eyes as

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we listened to the tributes being paid

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to John Smith that mighty oak that fell

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in 1993 I turned to Gerald and I said

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what we going to do now he said there's

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only one thing to do my dear boy and

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it's already happening he meant that

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Tony Blair was getting ready to stab in

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the back his closest friend Gordon Brown

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and run for the leadership against

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everybody's instincts and everybody's

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predictions there was ice at already six

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years in the House of Commons utterly

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naively imagining that no such betrayal

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could happen I said to Gerald Tony Blair

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can't run no against Gordon Brown and he

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said to me life is full of these little

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betrayals in politics Tony Blair went on

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to betray everyone including Joe Coffman

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in the role that he played in

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international affairs I like to think if

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Coffman had been in the Foreign Office

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or even if he'd been which he probably

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marginally might have preferred the

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Secretary of State for Culture Media and

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Sport because nobody knew more about

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culture and media than Joe Coffman he

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was virtually hollywood's man in london

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he once began a speech at the

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parliamentary Labour Party with the

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immortal words as Betty Davis said to me

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and the entire audience began laughing

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no labour Member of Parliament in all

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history could have begun a speech with

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the words as Betty Davis said to me

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copper never turned against Tony Blair

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and the way that I did but he came to

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realize

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that the invasion and occupation of Iraq

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had been the greatest blunder

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maybe crime and blunder that any British

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government had ever committed and I

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include in that the crime and the

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blunder of the handing of the land of

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Palestine to the settlers so that they

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might then call it Israel and the long

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Calvary of the people of Jammu and

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Kashmir

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I'm very sad actually talking to you

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although I'm happy proud to have been

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able to call the late and great and

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right honourable Sir Gerald Hoffman MP

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my friend for more than half of my life

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Gerald I salute you welcome back to

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Sputnik the right honourable Sir Gerald

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Kaufman PC MP has been in Parliament

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nearly 50 years but before that was a

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brilliant journalist and an assistant in

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Downing Street to the Labour Prime

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Minister Harold Wilson

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if flavour hadn't been out of power so

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long he would have been foreign

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secretary and what a difference to the

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world that would have made Gerald

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Kaufman's relatives were murdered in the

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Holocaust and he grew up an ardent

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supporter of the State of Israel now he

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is the clearest most authoritative voice

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against the crimes committed by that

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state and for justice for their victims

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last week in Parliament he said it was

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time for international sanctions against

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Israel and spoke of the sea of misery in

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the Gaza Strip it's a privilege to have

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him with us on the sputnik today Sir

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Gerald your speeches always travel far

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they have such authority and such

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clarity but none more than the speech

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you made on Gaza last week you're no

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stranger to Gaza you've seen firsthand

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that sea of misery tell our viewers

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about it I led a delegation of 60

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parliamentarians from 13 European

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Parliament's to Gaza not long ago it was

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a year after the attack by the Israelis

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which failed as all Israeli attacks now

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do though with huge loss of life called

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Operation Cast Lead a year afterwards

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the smoke from the white phosphorus

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bombardment by Israel was still fuming

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away people say rightly that the Syrians

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use chemical weapons

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nobody condemns the Israelis for using

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chemical weapons well I do the massive

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military destruction is of course

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compounded by the economic misery the

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blockade means that no meaningful

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economic activity can take place there

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the tunnels through which some means of

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life were passing have been destroyed on

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the Egyptian side and I think you are

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describing in Parliament the condition

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of life of those Palestinians who have

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survived these military attacks tell us

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scarcely any food is allowed to be

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brought in so everybody but particularly

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the young people and the children are

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undernourished which have affects them

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so much that it will go on to future

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generations they have hardly any fresh

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water just for a few hours every 5 days

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so they're diseased in that way they

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have no fuel of their own which means

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apart from anything else that a great

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deal of the transport now is by horse or

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donkey there's hardly any electric

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electrical power indeed on a recent

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summer because there wasn't enough

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electricity for air-conditioning in

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nearby Tel Aviv

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cut off the electricity in the Gaza

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Strip and Qatar had to intervene and see

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what it could do which wasn't enough no

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building materials are brought in so

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that the schools that the Israelis

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destroyed in some cases with children in

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them cannot be rebuilt medical

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facilities are at their minimum if any

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other country on Earth was doing what

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the Israelis have been doing to 1.7

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million Palestinians in Gaza there will

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be United Nations resolutions there will

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be calls for an intervention there will

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be sanctions but the Israelis literally

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get away with murder I'll come back to

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sanctions in a minute

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no you're Jewish your family suffered

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some perished in the Holocaust the

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greatest of all crimes which took place

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in the 20th century perhaps the greatest

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of all crimes ever and you grew up a

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supporter of the State of Israel what

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changed your mind

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as you say George I grew up a support of

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the State of Israel I I was brought up

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as a Zionist I went to Israel again and

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again and again on holiday I had family

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there I had friends there but as I

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traveled around because it's a small

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area I would see not just Israelis in

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Israel living in huge comfort subsidized

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by the Americans I would see settlers in

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the illegal settlements living in huge

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comfort and minutes away I will go to a

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Palestinian Township or village and see

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sewage flowing through the streets and

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if you have any sense of justice at all

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and as a Jewish child I was brought up

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with a sense of justice the disparity

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he's unacceptable and he's got worse

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it's got worse and worse and worse the

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whole time and the Israelis live in

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comfort I've gone through Tel Aviv and

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see them sitting at their pavement cafes

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complacently enjoying themselves while

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hardly any distance away the guard

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people in the Gaza Strip are living in

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total misery but don't let's forget the

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people on the West Bank they're living

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in misery as well now of course it is

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routine for Israeli propagandists to

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pray in aid the suffering of the Jewish

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people in the Holocaust you reject that

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as a cover don't you I reject it with

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utter contempt and anger most of my

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parents families because my parents came

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here as refugees

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most of my parents families were

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murdered in the Holocaust when the

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Germans came to the town from which my

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mother came in Poland stash off they

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lined up all the Jews to march to the

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railway station to be put in cattle

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wagons but for those who were not well

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enough to march they killed them on the

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spot and they killed my grandmother who

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was ill in bed by shooting her in her

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bed my grandmother did not die to

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provide cover for Israelis murdering

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Palestinian grandmothers well it's hard

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to put it any more powerfully than than

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that let's turn to what can be done

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about it

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there is of course a civil movement of

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boycott and fight for divestment and

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even individual sanction but you went

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further in your speech in Parliament

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last week you say it's time for

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international official governmental

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sanctions against Israel how would that

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work the Israelis have a very high

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first world standard of living that

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standard living depends partly on huge

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financial subsidies by the United States

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under the spineless Barack Obama and

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every politician pretty well in the

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United States yields to the Jewish

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pressure groups and that's why they dint

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do anything about it even if they wanted

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to do something about it the European

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Union is inactive the British government

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is inactive the Prime Minister David

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Cameron described the Gaza Strip as a

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prison camp but it so happened that he

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said that when he was visiting a Muslim

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country Turkey and wanted to ingratiate

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himself with his hosts hardly anything

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is done which is why lots of people

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including me take part in boycotts but

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the boycotts while important are

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insufficiently effective what we need

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and what I press for and we'll go on

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pressing for is governments the United

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Nations the European Union the United

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States our own country to impose

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economic sanctions so that the Israelis

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can feel what international opinion meal

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means there's no point in condemning

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them there's certainly no point in

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appealing to their better nature because

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they don't have a better nation you've

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got to make them suffer because that's

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the only way they will feel anything an

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00:21:42,220 --> 00:21:49,780
economic sanctions would erode this huge

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first world standard of living which

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00:21:49,780 --> 00:21:56,710
they enjoy on borrowed money what you

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described earlier was an apartheid

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system I'm one of the few people on the

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Left who was ever in apartheid South

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Africa was their underground for the

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African National Congress and the

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situation you described of

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the settlers living in great comfort was

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the indigenous owners of the land live

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00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:22,120
in utter misery a part was broken

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between the hammer of the struggle of

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the African people and the anvil of

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00:22:24,750 --> 00:22:31,750
international solidarity including

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sanctions and boycott do you think that

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such a move is going to have an effect

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and if so when I - when I was shadow

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foreign secretary visited South Africa

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under apartheid as the guest of the

410
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South African Council of Churches and I

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was followed everywhere by South African

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secret police that there is a huge

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difference between the apartheid that

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00:23:01,030 --> 00:23:07,210
the Israelis are inflicting on the

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Palestinians and the loathsome an odious

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00:23:07,210 --> 00:23:12,970
aparte that existed in South Africa

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there were distances considerable

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00:23:12,970 --> 00:23:20,500
differences between Johannesburg Cape

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00:23:16,780 --> 00:23:26,430
Town Durban and the South African the

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African townships in Palestine is

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minutes minutes between the settlements

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or between Israel behind the 67 borders

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and the hell that they've created in

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Gaza and on the West Bank

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so it's worse it's worse even than the

426
00:23:44,980 --> 00:23:51,790
foul actions of the South African

427
00:23:47,860 --> 00:23:55,680
apartheid government you've got to make

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these people feel it I'm not optimistic

429
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:04,660
but I'm realistic nobody ever expected

430
00:24:00,810 --> 00:24:08,020
the Soviet Union to collapse in the way

431
00:24:04,660 --> 00:24:10,480
that it did but it happened nobody ever

432
00:24:08,020 --> 00:24:12,370
expected apartheid in South Africa to

433
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:16,180
collapse in the way that he did but it

434
00:24:12,370 --> 00:24:18,370
happened the Israelis are stupid to

435
00:24:16,180 --> 00:24:20,560
imagine that just because they've got

436
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the fourth largest arms forces in the

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world they can

438
00:24:21,820 --> 00:24:27,370
go on like this I learned Greek at

439
00:24:25,180 --> 00:24:30,670
school and there was there's a phrase

440
00:24:27,370 --> 00:24:33,910
and the historian you through Citadis

441
00:24:30,670 --> 00:24:38,130
which says hunter-reay and that means

442
00:24:33,910 --> 00:24:41,680
everything flows the Israelis are barmy

443
00:24:38,130 --> 00:24:43,330
complacent and self-defeating to imagine

444
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,240
that they can go on forever as they're

445
00:24:43,330 --> 00:24:49,200
going now so Jonah Kaufman a privilege

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00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,200
to talk to you